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乌克兰的纳粹新解 [复制链接]

Rank: 4

发表于 2023-5-27 22:22:47 |显示全部楼层
You're closely following the living history of a nation bravely resisting an imperialistic war of aggression that has inspired the world when, all of a sudden, you come across a picture of a Ukrainian soldier wearing a Totenkopf "skull and crossbones" patch or giving the Nazi salute.

Rightfully so, the use of Nazi or neo-Nazi-related symbols by Ukrainian combatants is shocking and almost always causes controversy.

These symbols, reminders of some of history's worst crimes against humanity and the attempt to exterminate entire groups of people, are deeply offensive.

Of course, seeing these symbols on soldiers is always distressing, to say the least. While these soldiers do not represent a widespread practice in the Ukrainian military, the use of these symbols nonetheless discredits Ukraine and scares away some potential supporters worldwide.

After almost a decade of reporting on this war, I'd like to chip in with a couple of thoughts on why you might see these symbols on the battlefield in Ukraine. Not to justify these soldiers' decisions — as any use of Nazi symbols should always be condemned — but to offer my explanation for this phenomenon.

So, why are these symbols present on the battlefield?

First of all, let's establish one fact. No, Ukraine does not have "a Nazi problem."

Ukraine is no more "Nazi" than any country that has its small number of misfits who admire Adolf Hitler and form fringe groups and gangs based on those views. Ukraine has its groups like the U.K. has the neo-Nazi organization Combat 18, the Scandinavians have the Nordic Resistance Movement, and the United States has the Aryan Brotherhood.

With absolutely no proof, the Kremlin's war propaganda created the absurd narrative that Ukraine is a full-fledged, World War II-style Nazi nation that needs to be "de-Nazified" as justification for its brutal full-scale invasion of Ukraine.

Just like in many places around the world, people with far-right and neo-Nazi views, driven by their ideology, are prone to joining the military and participating in conflicts. One also has to take into account that in Ukraine, nationalism with deep historical roots is tied to a desire for independence from Russia. It has driven many to take up arms to fight in what they believe is an existential war against a neighbor that seeks to subjugate and destroy their country.

Among them, people with far-right views.

This feeling was very real back in 2014, in the early days of Russia's war in Ukraine's eastern Donbas. Ukraine's military was deeply disorganized and disoriented. Ultra-nationalist and far-right groups were among the many others that organized volunteer battalions to fight Russia's invasion in the east.

These groups were aggressive and highly motivated. It is, of course, true that, for instance, the Azov Battalion was originally founded by neo-Nazi and far-right groups (as well as many soccer ultra-fans), which brought along with it the typical aesthetics — not only neo-Nazi insignia but also things like Pagan rituals or names like "The Black Corps," the official newspaper of Nazi Germany's major paramilitary organization Schutzstaffel (SS).

But as with any country, real neo-Nazis in Ukraine were and still are a tiny minority.

All former guerilla groups with far-right ties were quickly absorbed into Ukraine's Armed Forces or the National Guard between 2015-2016 as linear, disciplined, and fully-controlled combat units.

From my experience observing this war over the years since 2014, the Ukrainian military has done a rather good job of "secularizing" and isolating these units from their far-right origins, largely due to pressure from the West.

This policy could be described as "keep your views to yourself and train hard."

This is what happened with Azov. Far more moderate servicemembers rose to prominence (and even to fame during the Battle of Mariupol and the siege of Azovstal), along with military specialists from other branches of service, who joined Azov because they wanted to serve with a highly professional combat unit

来源《基辅独立报》,https://kyivindependent.com/illi ... i-related-insignia/,互联网上许多乌克兰支持者口口声声称“乌克兰没有新纳粹”,结果乌克兰人自己说“我们有纳粹,不过是好的纳粹”,非常的乐

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Rank: 4

发表于 2023-5-27 22:30:03 |显示全部楼层
第一段就是比烂,“乌克兰并不比任何一个拥有少数崇拜阿道夫·希特勒并基于这些观点组建边缘团体和帮派的格格不入的国家更“纳粹”。乌克兰有自己的组织,比如英国有新纳齐人组织“战斗18”,斯堪的纳维亚人有北欧抵抗运动,美国有雅利安兄弟会。”

简单来说,“全世界都有新纳粹组织,乌克兰有点纳粹团体怎么了?”,他居然没有拿出中文互联网上被炒作烂掉的“俄罗斯光头党”和罗戈津来说事,泪目了

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Rank: 8Rank: 8

发表于 2023-5-27 22:30:20 |显示全部楼层
《基辅独立报》是乌克兰新纳粹的官方媒体之一,相当于纳粹德国的《人民观察家报》。

它确实在基辅,但是一点也不“独立”,而且也与诚实的“报道”无关。

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Rank: 4

发表于 2023-5-27 22:32:16 |显示全部楼层
第二段也还是老一套,“在绝对没有证据的情况下,克里姆林宫的战争宣传创造了一种荒谬的说法,即乌克兰是一个成熟的二战式纳粹国家,需要“去纳粹化”,作为其残酷全面入侵乌克兰的理由。”,总之,虽然我们乌克兰充满了各种纳粹法西斯形式的类人群星,但是我们并不是一个纳粹国家

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Rank: 4

发表于 2023-5-27 22:35:27 |显示全部楼层
第三段就开始胡说八道了,“就像在世界上许多地方一样,持极右翼和新纳粹观点的人在意识形态的驱使下,容易参军并参与冲突。人们还必须考虑到,在乌克兰,具有深厚历史根源的民族主义与脱离俄罗斯独立的愿望息息相关。这促使许多人拿起武器,与一个试图征服和摧毁他们国家的邻国进行他们认为是一场生存战争的战争。”纳粹分子更倾向于拿起武器保家卫国,因此我们的纳粹是好的纳粹,至于乌克兰“深厚历史根源的民族主义”,很想知道班德拉有什么“深厚历史根源”

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Rank: 4

发表于 2023-5-27 22:42:01 |显示全部楼层
后面两段更是逆天,“这种感觉在2014年非常真实,当时俄罗斯在乌克兰东部顿巴斯发动战争。乌克兰的军队非常混乱和迷失方向。极端民族主义和极右翼团体是组织志愿营对抗俄罗斯入侵东部的众多组织之一。

这些团体积极进取,积极性很高。当然,事实上,例如,亚速营最初是由新纳粹和极右翼团体创建的,这带来了典型的美学——不仅是新纳粹徽章,还有异教徒仪式或名称,如纳粹德国主要准军事组织党卫军(SS)。

但是,和任何国家一样,真正的新纳粹在乌克兰依然是极少数”

军事化的新纳粹到底是怎么“和任何国家一样”,又怎么算得上“极少数”的,我暂时蒙在鼓里,可能他们觉得要脱离极少数得跟小胡子一样在议会里面占多数吧

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Rank: 4

发表于 2023-5-27 22:47:18 |显示全部楼层
后面就彻底胡言乱语了,“2015-2016年间,所有与极右翼有联系的前游击队都很快被乌克兰武装部队或国民警卫队吸收,成为线性、纪律严明、完全受控的作战部队。



根据我自2014年以来多年来观察这场战争的经验,乌克兰军方在“世俗化”和将这些部队与极右翼势力隔离方面做得相当好,这主要是由于来自西方的压力。



这项政策可以被描述为“保守自己的观点,努力训练。”



亚速营就是这样。温和得多的服役人员声名鹊起(甚至在马里乌波尔战役期间声名鹊起),还有来自其他军种的军事专家,他们加入亚速营是因为他们想在一支高度专业的战斗部队服役”

既然已经被吸收,成了“可控的,纪律严明的”部队,那现在哪来的亚速营,在战场上打着万字到处跑的霍霍尔分子是地里长出来的?既然“世俗化做的很好”,那网上的小视频都是俄罗斯拍的小电影?又要“世俗化”,又要“保持观点,努力训练”,搁着掩耳盗铃呢?

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Rank: 8Rank: 8

发表于 2023-5-27 22:50:01 |显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 井冈山卫士 于 2023-5-27 22:50 编辑
汤铜 发表于 2023-5-27 22:47
后面就彻底胡言乱语了,“2015-2016年间,所有与极右翼有联系的前游击队都很快被乌克兰武装部队或国民警卫 ...

“我虐俘,我放毒气,我炮击平民,我轰炸核电厂,我奸淫掳掠,但我是好纳粹。你要是说我,你就是帝国主义分子”

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