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Rank: 8Rank: 8

发表于 2012-9-8 06:03:23 |显示全部楼层
人民万岁 发表于 2012-9-7 14:18
同意:
fuxidaoxue有混入红色中国为 的民独轮子嫌疑,建议封杀网号!

fuxiaoxue的原贴在哪里,是否已经删掉了?

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Rank: 9Rank: 9Rank: 9

发表于 2012-9-8 06:19:12 |显示全部楼层
感谢海岩等网友揭发。已处理。

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发表于 2012-9-8 08:46:53 |显示全部楼层
提示: 作者被禁止或删除 内容自动屏蔽

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Rank: 8Rank: 8

发表于 2012-9-8 10:25:45 |显示全部楼层
我在这里必须强调的是作为一个媒体本身是有立场倾向等的,所以能发什么帖子或者什么文章,媒体本身的负责人是可以决定的,这不是主要问题,对于毛派,我要说的是作为政权层面,绝对不能如毛时代那样对不同言论采取官僚主义的处理方式,就是不能对言论思想进行文字狱进行关押劳教等做法,必须坚持言论自由原则,任何言论都是可以,错的可以批判,假的可以打假,就是不能对言论思想治罪,否则最终会成为官僚主义压制无产阶级自己的工具,历史证明了这一点。

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发表于 2012-9-8 10:27:52 |显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 马列托主义者 于 2012-9-8 10:28 编辑

毛派反对当局压制言论封锁网站的做法也反对对毛派因为言论而治罪的做法,因此首先毛派自己不能做相反的事,我感觉毛派上台可能比当局对言论的压制甚至治罪更厉害。毛派必须矫正历史上的这些错误做法。

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Rank: 8Rank: 8

发表于 2012-9-8 10:31:51 |显示全部楼层
老汉:当然不是讲所有的话都是自由的,如违反“反修防修”思想的,你就没有自由了,你不能说要打倒社会主义,拥护资本主义,拥护修正主义上台等等,这些话不用毛主席批,全国人民就把他批倒了。我国还存在民主党派,列宁一个都没有。
回,只要是非武装暴动来推翻工人民主制度或者你说的社会主义制度,任何人可以在言论和思想上反对现有制度包括工人民主制度或社会主义制度的言论自由思想自由,对于这些言论不能进行暴力的国家镇压而应该让群众去判断并加以批判。
托洛茨基说官僚主义方式的禁止言论自由最终就如税收一样要落到无产阶级自己身上的,苏联和中国的60年证明了这一点。
下面是一篇托洛茨基写的关于工人阶级和媒体自由的文章,值得一读。
Leon Trotsky
Freedom of the Press
and the Working Class
(August 1938)

The following text is the editorial of the first issue of the Mexican Marxist magazine Clave, published in October 1938. The original manuscript, written by Trotsky, was found around 1977 in the Trotsky Archive in Harvard.
Translated from the French and Greek translations, for the Trotsky Internet Archive in 1998. A translation directly from the Spanish can be found on p.417 of Writings of Leon Trotsky, 1937-38

A campaign against the reactionary press is developing in Mexico. The campaign is directed by the CTM (Confederation of Mexican Workers) leaders or, more precisely, by Mr. Lombardo Toledano personally. The object is to “curb” reactionary press, either by submitting it to censorship, or by banning it completely. The trade unions have entered the path of war. Decidedly incurable democrats, corrupted by their experiences with a completely Stalinised Moscow, headed by “friends” of the GPU, have greeted this campaign, which can only be described as suicidal. In fact it is not difficult to see that, even if this campaign would triumph and bring concrete results to the liking of Lombardo Toledano, the ultimate consequences will fall back on the working class.

Theory, as well as historic experience, testify that any restriction to democracy in bourgeois society, is eventually directed against the proletariat, just as taxes eventually fall on the shoulders of the proletariat. Bourgeois democracy is usable by the proletariat only insofar as it opens the way for the development of the class struggle. Consequently, any workers “leader” who arms the bourgeois state with special means to control public opinion in general, and the press in particular, is a traitor. In the last analysis, the accentuation of class struggle will force bourgeois of all shades, to conclude a pact: to accept special legislation, and every kind of restrictive measures, and measures of “democratic” censorship against the working class. Those who have not yet realised this, should leave the ranks of the working class.

“But sometimes” – will object certain “friends” of the Soviet union – “the dictatorship of the proletariat is obliged to resort to exceptional measures, especially against the reactionary press”

To this we reply: First, this objection equates a workers’ state with a bourgeois state. Although Mexico is a semi-colonial country, it is at the same time a bourgeois state, definitely not a workers’ state. But even from the point of view of the interests of the dictatorship of the proletariat, the interdiction or censorship of bourgeois papers is not at all a matter of “program” or “principle", nor an ideal situation.

Once victorious, the proletariat may find itself forced, for a period of time, to take special measures against the bourgeoisie, if the bourgeoisie adopts an attitude of open revolt against the workers’ state. In this case, restrictions to the freedom of the press go hand in hand with all other measures used in preparation for a civil war. When forced to use artillery and aviation against the enemy we will obviously not tolerate this same enemy maintaining his own centers of information and propaganda inside the camp of the armed proletariat. Nevertheless, even in this case, if exceptional measures are prolonged long enough to create a permanent situation, then they carry the danger of going out of control and, giving a political monopoly to the workers’ bureaucracy, becoming a source of its degeneration.

We have before us a living example of such a dynamic, with the hated suppression of the freedom of expression and of the press in the Soviet Union. And this has nothing to do with the interests of the dictatorship of the proletariat. On the contrary, it helps protect the interests of the new caste in power against the attacks of the workers’ and peasants’ opposition. This highly bonapartist Moscow bureaucracy is currently aped by Messrs. Lombardo Toledano and co. who confuse their personal careers with the interests of socialism.

The real tasks of the workers’ state do not consist in policing public opinion, but in freeing it from the yoke of capital. This can only be done by placing the means of production – which includes the production of information – in the hands of society in its entirety. Once this essential step towards socialism has been taken, all currents of opinion which have not taken arms against the dictatorship of the proletariat must be able to express themselves freely. It is the duty of the workers’ state to put in their hands, to all according to their numeric importance, the technical means necessary for this, printing presses, paper, means of transportation. One of the principal causes of the degeneration of the state machine is the monopolisation of the press by the Stalinist bureaucracy which risks to transform all the gains of the October revolution to a pile of ruins.

If we had to search for examples of the nefarious influence of the Comintern on workers’ movements of various countries, the actual campaign led by Lombardo Toledano would furnish one of the worst. Essentially, Toledano and his doctrinary companions try to introduce into a bourgeois democratic system methods and means which, under certain circumstances, might be inevitable under the dictatorship of the proletariat. Moreover, they don’t in fact borrow these methods from the dictatorship of the proletariat, but from its bonapartist usurpers. In other words, they infect an already sick bourgeois democracy with the virus of the decadent bureaucracy.

The anemic democracy of Mexico is facing a constant, mortal, daily danger from two directions: First from the foreign imperialism and, second, from the agents of reaction in the interior of the country, who control the high volume publications. But only those blind or simpleminded could think that the workers and peasants could be freed from reactionary ideas by the banning of reactionary press. In fact, it is only the greatest freedom of expression that can create favorable conditions for the advance of the revolutionary movement in the working class.


.

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Rank: 8Rank: 8

发表于 2012-9-8 10:34:57 |显示全部楼层
It is essential to wage an unrelenting battle against the reactionary press. But the workers cannot leave a task they have to fulfill themselves through their own organisations and their own press, to the repressive fist of the bourgeois state. Today the government may seem well disposed towards workers’ organisations. Tomorrow it may fall, and it inevitably will, into the hands of the most reactionary elements of the bourgeoisie. In this case the existing repressive laws will be used against the workers. Only adventurists who think of nothing but the moment’s needs can fail to guard themselves against such a danger.

The most efficient way to fight the bourgeois press is for the workers’ press to develop. Of course, yellow papers like El Popular, are unable to undertake such a task. Such papers have no place among the workers’ press, the revolutionary press, or even the bourgeois press of good reputation. El Popular serves the personal ambitions of Mr. Toledano, who himself is in fact in the service of the Stalinist bureaucracy. Its methods: lies, calumnies, witch hunts, are methods à la Toledano. His paper has neither program nor ideas. It is evident that such a sheet can never strike a resonant chord in the working class, nor win them over from the bourgeois press.

So we arrive at the inevitable conclusion that the struggle between the bourgeois press starts with the eviction of the degenerate leaders from workers’ organisations and in particular from the liberation of the workers’ press from the tutelage of Toledano and other bourgeois careerists. The Mexican proletariat needs a honest press to express its needs, defend its interests, broaden its horizon and pave the way for the socialist revolution in Mexico. This is what CLAVE intends to do. So, we start by declaring an unrelenting war against the bonapartist pretensions of Toledano. In this effort, we hope for the support of all advanced workers, as well as Marxists and authentic democrats.
托洛茨基在该文中谈到了墨西哥搞的一场抵制所谓的反动媒体的行动,这场运动完全是斯大林主义的,结果即使能取得所谓的胜利也最终将使无产阶级丧失出版的自由的权利,成 为反对无产阶级的东西。
理论和历史证明任何在资产阶级社会的对民主的限制最终都要落到反无产阶级的方向上来,就像税收最终要落到无产阶级肩上一样
(Theory, as well as historic experience, testify that any restriction to

democracy in bourgeois society, is eventually directed against the

proletariat, just as taxes eventually fall on the shoulders of the

proletariat. )
托洛茨基还准确地说:资产阶级民主在它能为阶级斗争的发展开辟道路的界限内对于无产阶级是有益的。
(Bourgeois democracy is usable by the proletariat only insofar as it

opens the way for the development of the class struggle.)
托洛茨基该文还正确地说,对无产阶级来说,最有效的与资产阶级媒体斗争的方式就是发展无产阶级的媒体。
(The most efficient way to fight the bourgeois press is for the workers’ press to develop.)

托洛茨基在前面引用的文中充分表达了言论自由、出版自由对于无产阶级斗争和无产阶级专政的意义,无产阶级要战胜资产阶级不是通过官僚控制的方式遏制资产阶级的言论, 这会反过来走向反对无产阶级自己的言论的地步,这就是苏联和60年来中国的情况,无产阶级要做的是通过自己的言论自由、出版自由击败资产阶级,除非资产阶 级直接使用武力,无产阶级才有必要采用武力。无产阶级一旦获得政权就更可能而有能力发展自己的言论和出版事业,更加不惧怕资产阶级的意识形态。

托洛茨基说:工人国家的真正任务不在于监视公众观点,而是让公众观点摆脱资本的束缚,要做到这一点,必须把生产资料-包括用于生产信息的生产资料-完全置于社 会的手中,一旦采取通往社会主义的步骤,那么一切只要不是武力反对无产阶级专政的言论(非表现性行为)必须能得到自由的表达。(否则就可能如苏联和中国这样转变为官僚集团 的反工人的工具)

(The real tasks of the workers’ state do not consist in policing public

opinion, but in freeing it from the yoke of capital. This can only be

done by placing the means of production – which includes the production

of information – in the hands of society in its entirety. Once this

essential step towards socialism has been taken, all currents of

opinion which have not taken arms against the dictatorship of the

proletariat must be able to express themselves freely. )
.

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Rank: 6Rank: 6

发表于 2012-9-8 19:25:01 |显示全部楼层
感谢远航一号,redchina 正确处理,让论坛有阳光的思想和言论 !

  让右派和卖国者等到另外论坛(够多了)去,进步思想国内招封,这里是红色园地,在本论坛没有他们的市场!

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Rank: 6Rank: 6

发表于 2012-9-8 19:43:19 |显示全部楼层
持不同见解尚可容忍,恶毒攻击另当别论。这可不是民主气度的问题。是侮辱人格、违法!不可容忍!

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Rank: 3Rank: 3

发表于 2012-9-9 09:06:27 |显示全部楼层
"持不同见解尚可容忍,恶毒攻击另当别论。这可不是民主气度的问题。是侮辱人格、违法!不可容忍!"
说得好!但好像马列托主义者特别在意轮子,同情轮子

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